Posts by Richard Oliver

102

Day 2 - Fessler vs. Watchtower – Thomas Jefferson Jr takes the stand in Jehovah’s Witness Child Abuse Trial

by darkspilver in

day two (wednesday 8 february 2017).

see also posts and threads regarding: pre-trial / day one / day one update / day five (last day, settlement).

jefferson: not totally.. zeff: okay.

Richard Oliver

Does anyone know how to get the transcripts for this case the full transcript without commentary?

52

Reveal article: Jehovah’s Witnesses settle suit alleging cover-up of child sex abuse

by AndersonsInfo in

https://www.revealnews.org/blog/jehovahs-witnesses-settle-lawsuit-alleging-coverup-of-child-sex-abuse/.

by trey bundy / february 17, 2017 .

the jehovah’s witnesses settled a lawsuit this week brought by a pennsylvania woman who says the religion’s leaders covered up sexual abuse she suffered as a teenager.. the settlement came five days into a trial in which stephanie fessler, a former jehovah’s witness, claimed the religion’s parent corporation violated pennsylvania’s child abuse reporting laws by instructing local leaders – known as elders – not to report her allegations to police.. according to fessler, a middle-aged jehovah’s witness woman, terry monheim, began sexually abusing her when she was 14. at 15, fessler disclosed the abuse to her parents.

Richard Oliver

In the Conti case it was defined that there was enough evidence that an elder assigned Kendrick to work with Candace. That is where the issue was . If a parent asked someone to pick up there daughter to take her, that is a different story. Every case is unique. That is why elders are instructed to get legal advice on a case by case basis, their instructions is even not to rely on what the legal department informed them before on a different case.

52

Reveal article: Jehovah’s Witnesses settle suit alleging cover-up of child sex abuse

by AndersonsInfo in

https://www.revealnews.org/blog/jehovahs-witnesses-settle-lawsuit-alleging-coverup-of-child-sex-abuse/.

by trey bundy / february 17, 2017 .

the jehovah’s witnesses settled a lawsuit this week brought by a pennsylvania woman who says the religion’s leaders covered up sexual abuse she suffered as a teenager.. the settlement came five days into a trial in which stephanie fessler, a former jehovah’s witness, claimed the religion’s parent corporation violated pennsylvania’s child abuse reporting laws by instructing local leaders – known as elders – not to report her allegations to police.. according to fessler, a middle-aged jehovah’s witness woman, terry monheim, began sexually abusing her when she was 14. at 15, fessler disclosed the abuse to her parents.

Richard Oliver

There seems to be some confusion. Secular courts don't have subject matter jurisdiction in purely religious cases, such as membership or discipline of members. As example Anderson v Watchtower shows that df'ing is a matter that secular courts cannot intereve. Or in the Menlo Park case, that removal of elders is a decision that the branch can make only and cannot be reviewed by the courts.

The courts have determined though that secular courts does have subject matter jurisdiction in secular matters. But what the courts have ruled in child sex abuse cases is a few things. First, in many states the breaking of the mandatory reporting statutes is a criminal matter and does not rise a civil cause of action. In PA the statute calls for the violation of the mandatory reporting as a misdemeanor with a possible sentence of up to 1 year in prison and/or up to a 1000 dollar fine. Second, the Conti appeals court ruled that Watchtower and the congregation did not have a duty to warn or to protect. The appeals court ruled that all Watchtower and the congregation did not supervise Kendrick only when it came to the event that he took Candace in service, as service is an official activity of Watchtower and the congregation. Though in another case another California appeals court ruled that only the actual act of field service is the official activity, not the going to or from field service. Third, the first amendment argument that Watchtower argues comes from the fact that watchtower, a recognized religion, views judicial committee and transmission of those committee facts to the branch is confidential. California is one of the few states that doesn't automatically recognize that argument, that doesn't mean that the majority of other states don't. It has caused problems, such as as Georgia has defined the confidentiality so narrowly that only Christian and Jewish spiritual leaders can claim the privilege. Previous on this post I posted westlaw summaries of cases that prove that.

52

Reveal article: Jehovah’s Witnesses settle suit alleging cover-up of child sex abuse

by AndersonsInfo in

https://www.revealnews.org/blog/jehovahs-witnesses-settle-lawsuit-alleging-coverup-of-child-sex-abuse/.

by trey bundy / february 17, 2017 .

the jehovah’s witnesses settled a lawsuit this week brought by a pennsylvania woman who says the religion’s leaders covered up sexual abuse she suffered as a teenager.. the settlement came five days into a trial in which stephanie fessler, a former jehovah’s witness, claimed the religion’s parent corporation violated pennsylvania’s child abuse reporting laws by instructing local leaders – known as elders – not to report her allegations to police.. according to fessler, a middle-aged jehovah’s witness woman, terry monheim, began sexually abusing her when she was 14. at 15, fessler disclosed the abuse to her parents.

Richard Oliver

I keep reading here and on other sites where Watchtower just uses technicalities to get out of their responsibilities in court. Court, is all about technicalities, whether it is when a case can be filed, or who the case can be brought against. It even comes down to what was exactly said and how it was said, these are what the law is about, it is about the details. Everyone has the same rights under the law, whether you like them or not, and Watchtower has every right to defend themselves, with any means that are at their disposal.

Also in the Pardon Case, the data that the US Branch has been transmitted to Pardon and his counsel. The personal information of third parties have been redacted, which is what the 4th Circuit Court of Appeals of California, says can occur. The current appeal is, whether the level of redaction is acceptable.

52

Reveal article: Jehovah’s Witnesses settle suit alleging cover-up of child sex abuse

by AndersonsInfo in

https://www.revealnews.org/blog/jehovahs-witnesses-settle-lawsuit-alleging-coverup-of-child-sex-abuse/.

by trey bundy / february 17, 2017 .

the jehovah’s witnesses settled a lawsuit this week brought by a pennsylvania woman who says the religion’s leaders covered up sexual abuse she suffered as a teenager.. the settlement came five days into a trial in which stephanie fessler, a former jehovah’s witness, claimed the religion’s parent corporation violated pennsylvania’s child abuse reporting laws by instructing local leaders – known as elders – not to report her allegations to police.. according to fessler, a middle-aged jehovah’s witness woman, terry monheim, began sexually abusing her when she was 14. at 15, fessler disclosed the abuse to her parents.

Richard Oliver

Data Dog:

You have to realize that it is not what the Watchtower says that is determinate in these issues. Watchtower does say that they don't have a clergy and laity class and that they view themselves as a congregational religion and not a hierarchical religion. But that is not how the law views it. Even in this case the complaint calls watchtower a hierarchical religion, with a top-down system of governance. Court after court has determined that they are a hierarchical system. Also, courts have recognized that they are entitled to clergy-penitent privilege, even when matters are shared during a judicial committee and transmitted to the branch office. Not all states and all courts have found the privilege exists in all cases but there are cases where it does exist.

52

Reveal article: Jehovah’s Witnesses settle suit alleging cover-up of child sex abuse

by AndersonsInfo in

https://www.revealnews.org/blog/jehovahs-witnesses-settle-lawsuit-alleging-coverup-of-child-sex-abuse/.

by trey bundy / february 17, 2017 .

the jehovah’s witnesses settled a lawsuit this week brought by a pennsylvania woman who says the religion’s leaders covered up sexual abuse she suffered as a teenager.. the settlement came five days into a trial in which stephanie fessler, a former jehovah’s witness, claimed the religion’s parent corporation violated pennsylvania’s child abuse reporting laws by instructing local leaders – known as elders – not to report her allegations to police.. according to fessler, a middle-aged jehovah’s witness woman, terry monheim, began sexually abusing her when she was 14. at 15, fessler disclosed the abuse to her parents.

Richard Oliver

Never a Jw:

State Legislatures, as well as the US Congress, has recognized that there are certain professions and groups that are entitled to more confidential communication than others. They have recognized the inherent need for lawyers to speak freely with their clients, without the fear of being compelled to testify of what they learned from speaking with them. It also makes the client feel safe and secure that whatever their lawyer finds out about during their conversations that it will be kept confidential. The right to an attorney in criminal cases and the need of one in civil, family and other types of laws makes it a public policy issue that attorneys and clients must be able to speak freely and openly. Married couples privilege also has a public policy concern, the fear of married individuals keeping things from each other out of concern that they will be forced to testify against the other. Married couples also receive many other benefits that unmarried people receive because of the law. That is why the supreme court was able to strike down laws that barred gay couples from marrying.

Married couples privilege also has a public policy concern, the fear of married individuals keeping things from each other out of concern that they will be forced to testify against the other. Married couples also receive many other benefits that unmarried people receive because of the law. That is why the supreme court was able to strike down laws that barred gay couples from marrying.

Doctor and patient confidentiality, again has a public policy interest that must be taken into account. The fear that a person's medical information being released to others would stop some people from seeking proper treatment. If a woman is afraid that her family will find out that she received an abortion, she may not want to seek that type of treatment. And communication is key for doctors and other medical professionals to understand and plan proper medical treatment and diagnostic services. Again if a woman or a man comes from a family or community where premarital sex is something that can cause severe issues, a doctor knowing that they had unprotected sex will allow them to determine what tests to run because of a symptom that they are exhibiting, whereas if the patient didn't feel free to tell the doctor that they had sex, the recommendations for tests may be different.

And finally clergy-penitent privilege, here some may agree and some may disagree but unfortunately, in many states and in the US Rule of Civil Procedure Rule 505, it is spelled out that the inherent need of humans to receive some form of spiritual counseling needs to be protected. The need for humans if they choose, to receive spiritual counseling must be free from governmental intervention, such as forcing the counselor within a faith to reveal information that was gained through their official sessions. Of

Of course, the clergy-penitent is the most controversial form of privilege because not everyone believes in a spirituality or the need for organized religion. But there are some people that don't believe in going to seek medical help from psychologist or psychiatrist or there are Christian Scientist that don't believe in many forms of medical intervention, so does that mean that the doctor-patient privilege should be revoked as well? Some individuals don't believe in marriage, so should the marital privilege be revoked? Just because you don't believe in an aspect of something doesn't mean that the government should take that privilege away from others.

And should privilege be there for everyone? Should I be able to go up to my friend Joe and tell him that I just stole a car and if the police question him, should he be able to say, what me and Richard talked about is privilege? No. Because that is not in the public's interest. Just like, if Joe is a minister and we were talking about the game last night, and I told him that I just stole a car, he would be compelled to reveal that information if asked about it, because he wasn't serving as a minister when I revealed that information to him, he was just my friend.

Now in cases of child abuse or neglect, has the states said that some of the above privileges don't apply? Of course they did, that is clearly evident in state statutes. In many states the only privilege that applies is attorney-client and in some states they also allow for the clergy-penitent. Married couple and doctor-patient privileges don't apply in a majority of states. The legislatures in those states weighed the benefits and the dangers of allowing some privileges and disallowing other privileges. It is certainly a matter that requires great discussion and can be changed, but the forum to do that is to get state legislatures to make those changes. It is clear that courts have agreed that there are professions and groups of people who can have additional confidential communicaiton privileges with others.

52

Reveal article: Jehovah’s Witnesses settle suit alleging cover-up of child sex abuse

by AndersonsInfo in

https://www.revealnews.org/blog/jehovahs-witnesses-settle-lawsuit-alleging-coverup-of-child-sex-abuse/.

by trey bundy / february 17, 2017 .

the jehovah’s witnesses settled a lawsuit this week brought by a pennsylvania woman who says the religion’s leaders covered up sexual abuse she suffered as a teenager.. the settlement came five days into a trial in which stephanie fessler, a former jehovah’s witness, claimed the religion’s parent corporation violated pennsylvania’s child abuse reporting laws by instructing local leaders – known as elders – not to report her allegations to police.. according to fessler, a middle-aged jehovah’s witness woman, terry monheim, began sexually abusing her when she was 14. at 15, fessler disclosed the abuse to her parents.

Richard Oliver

It is also important to remember that clergy-penitent privilege just like husband and wife privilege is not valid when one who is part of that privilege see things themselves. It only is privilege if it is communicated either verbally or in writing. If a wife sees her husband kill a man, the privilege is not in effect for her to testify what she saw herself. She could not discuss what her husband told her about the murder but that is it.

52

Reveal article: Jehovah’s Witnesses settle suit alleging cover-up of child sex abuse

by AndersonsInfo in

https://www.revealnews.org/blog/jehovahs-witnesses-settle-lawsuit-alleging-coverup-of-child-sex-abuse/.

by trey bundy / february 17, 2017 .

the jehovah’s witnesses settled a lawsuit this week brought by a pennsylvania woman who says the religion’s leaders covered up sexual abuse she suffered as a teenager.. the settlement came five days into a trial in which stephanie fessler, a former jehovah’s witness, claimed the religion’s parent corporation violated pennsylvania’s child abuse reporting laws by instructing local leaders – known as elders – not to report her allegations to police.. according to fessler, a middle-aged jehovah’s witness woman, terry monheim, began sexually abusing her when she was 14. at 15, fessler disclosed the abuse to her parents.

Richard Oliver

Never a jw.

Husband and wife privilege is a well-established privilege throughout the country. It is there to encourage open communication between two married individuals. But in many states the only privilege that is recognized for child abuse is that of attorney-client and priest-pertinent. Those privileges are specifically codified in those statutes. In pretty much all other proceedings a husband and wife privilege is sacrosanct and rarely is ever violated. Equal protection does apply here because all recognized religions receives this privilege and is not dependent on how the state views a certain religion.

52

Reveal article: Jehovah’s Witnesses settle suit alleging cover-up of child sex abuse

by AndersonsInfo in

https://www.revealnews.org/blog/jehovahs-witnesses-settle-lawsuit-alleging-coverup-of-child-sex-abuse/.

by trey bundy / february 17, 2017 .

the jehovah’s witnesses settled a lawsuit this week brought by a pennsylvania woman who says the religion’s leaders covered up sexual abuse she suffered as a teenager.. the settlement came five days into a trial in which stephanie fessler, a former jehovah’s witness, claimed the religion’s parent corporation violated pennsylvania’s child abuse reporting laws by instructing local leaders – known as elders – not to report her allegations to police.. according to fessler, a middle-aged jehovah’s witness woman, terry monheim, began sexually abusing her when she was 14. at 15, fessler disclosed the abuse to her parents.

Richard Oliver

Now the father could not argue clergy pertinent relationship though. He did not gather the information in his capacity as an elder but that of a father. Courts have ruled that the communication must meet certain requirements, of course each state differs based on their laws, but in general they have to meet these. First that the clergy member was acting in their official capacity as a spiritual leader or counselor. This means that you couldn't call up your friend Joe who is a minister and while discussing the game last night you blurt out that you just stole a car, that would not be protected. Second, is would a reasonable person expect that the conversation be kept confidential. Speaking in front of a group of other people would not qualify for the most part. Though as I pointed out there are exceptions to that, it depends on the nature of the conversation. Third, is the communication part of the principles and discipline of the established religion. Such as in the Catholic Church, there is some rituals when it comes to confessions verses other communications. So is the process well established within that faith.

52

Reveal article: Jehovah’s Witnesses settle suit alleging cover-up of child sex abuse

by AndersonsInfo in

https://www.revealnews.org/blog/jehovahs-witnesses-settle-lawsuit-alleging-coverup-of-child-sex-abuse/.

by trey bundy / february 17, 2017 .

the jehovah’s witnesses settled a lawsuit this week brought by a pennsylvania woman who says the religion’s leaders covered up sexual abuse she suffered as a teenager.. the settlement came five days into a trial in which stephanie fessler, a former jehovah’s witness, claimed the religion’s parent corporation violated pennsylvania’s child abuse reporting laws by instructing local leaders – known as elders – not to report her allegations to police.. according to fessler, a middle-aged jehovah’s witness woman, terry monheim, began sexually abusing her when she was 14. at 15, fessler disclosed the abuse to her parents.

Richard Oliver

You did not read what the holdings were in State v Archilbeque. The court ruled that the clergy-penitent privilege was still in effect even though part of the conversation was in the presence of the wife. It is to describe that just because there is the presence of a third party does not mean that the person has waived their privilege.

And in Jane Doe v Corporation of Presidents of Church of Jesus Christ and of Latter Day Saints the state supreme court ruled that even the investigation does not waive the privilege. Neither does the transmission of the facts of the accusation to a national headquarters.